>Heart disease deaths worldwide linked to chemical widely used in plastics
First thing I thought of is how much DEHP is used is the hospital, including for medical devices implanted in the heart. Such as pacemakers, catheters, stents and valves.
DEHP as a component is something like 30% of flexible tubing used in a hospital setting.
Phthalates leach because they aren't integrated with the base plastic by design - that's how they work. Phthalates sit in between the polymer chains (such as PET), rather than being bonded to them, which is precisely what affords that material flexibility, and also why they leach so easily.
DebtDeflation 5 hours ago [-]
On a similar note, we had the big push towards "BPA-free" plastic a few years ago. Manufacturers just replaced the BPA with related bisphenols like BPF which is probably just as bad as BPA and BPS which is probably worse than BPA.
tmaly 4 hours ago [-]
My neighbor, a retired chemist, said it is just a game of whack a mole.
NewJazz 4 hours ago [-]
This is what happens when you allow companies to dump unvetted, novel, synthetic chemicals into products and packaging. Especially when the audience for those products has substantially less information than the companies who produce them en masse.
dennis_jeeves2 2 hours ago [-]
>audience for those products has substantially less information
I assure you, they will not do anything with the information even if they had it.
Convenience trumps every other consideration including safety.
convolvatron 2 hours ago [-]
I resent this framing as being entirely about short-sighted consumers valuing convenience. surely it has quite a bit to do with cost as well, both for the producer to increase their margins and also the end consumer. alot of it has to do with choice. the market presents very few non-plastic options in cases where plastic will do fine. so yes, convenience in the 'i hate to buy this plastic thing, but I dont have a week to find someone in estonia that still makes quality goods by hand and then wait for it to be shipped to me' sense
dennis_jeeves2 1 hours ago [-]
>I resent this framing as being entirely about short-sighted consumers valuing convenience.
You resentment is not valid. The switch to plastics did not happen overnight. These used a lot more choices in the past. Common people increasingly chose plastics over a period of time. ( or rather were lazy) Your resentment can be rephrased as - "I cannot come to terms with the fact that common people really are that stupid".
Freedoms in various forms are generally not taken away overnight. As they say "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"
ziddoap 53 minutes ago [-]
Their resentment is completely valid.
jajko 12 minutes ago [-]
In normally functioning society there are built in protection mechanisms that shield general population from such harm, as much as possible of course. FDA for US for example.
You can't expect every citizen to have 20 phds and actively keep searching for all potential harm from all sides, even you, whoever you are, are not keeping up with it all, thats a fact.
It can be tackled trivially, albeit it will create some business friction - you introduce a novel chemical in your product on our market? Please here is the substantial checklist of tests that you need to pass to be allowed. Otherwise please use approved stuff or bye, be it chinese sweatshop or apple. People like trump with their elephant-in-porcelaine-shop approach could be the force of good if they focused ie on such topics with their ferocity. But they do exact opposite (cash flow uber alles, fuck non-ultra-high-net-worth plebs its their fault for being poor and dumb subhumans).
So please a bit less of that high horse and more empathy and reason, absolute capitalism with disregard of individuals is what gave us marxism and communism as response, not the path we want or need to go down in 21st century for any reason.
euroderf 4 hours ago [-]
Expect no improvement in the short-to-medium term.
dennis_jeeves2 3 hours ago [-]
I would also add long term. Often one dangerous substance is replaced with another.
3 hours ago [-]
sorcerer-mar 3 hours ago [-]
And it doesn't help that our only practical lever for improvement was recently eliminated by SCOTUS.
Under the Chevron Doctrine, Congress could pass a law that broadly bans all chemicals like these and then the agencies could react to new studies like this and push out new rules as we learn more and as companies attempt workarounds.
But with that tool gone, there's basically no chance of this ever getting fixed. Congress will probably have to pass laws that ban each specific individual compound. Good luck with that!
somenameforme 2 hours ago [-]
What you're describing would still be 100% possible. Chevron deference specifically applied when agencies tried to expand powers in ways that were not reasonably within their mandate. For a very high profile recent example when the CDC tried to expand the expired COVID related eviction moratorium, they did so under a section of the public health services act that granted them the power to carry out measures "necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases."
Claiming that banning evictions falls under there is a rather 'creative' interpretation, but it was initially allowed due to Chevon deference where judges were obligated to defer to the interpretations of regulatory agencies.
If an agency is tasked with the 'prohibition of plastics, or related compounds, deemed reasonably likely to be harmful' then they would be fully capable of doing just that. With Chevron Deference they probably could then expand that mandate to then do something like claim regulatory authority over beaches owing to prohibited plastic waste washing ashore, but without it that would probably require a new law since that's clearly an unintended expansion of power.
sorcerer-mar 2 hours ago [-]
> Chevron deference specifically applied when agencies tried to expand powers in ways that were not reasonably within their mandate
Not true. And I mean literally definitionally not true. Chevron deference only applies (definitionally) when the agency's interpretation is reasonable.
With Chevron deference, if a regulated entity challenged a rule, the court applied a two part test:
Part 1. Is the matter resolved unambiguously by legislation? If yes: legislation wins. If no: proceed to Part 2.
Part 2. Is the agency's interpretation of the legislation reasonable? If yes: the agency's rule wins. If no: the rule is bad.
Without Chevron deference, if a regulated entity challenges a rule, it works this way:
Part 1. Is the matter resolved unambiguously by legislation? If yes: legislation wins. If no: proceed to Part 2.
Part 2. What's the court's opinion on the matter? That's the rule for this particular instance of the problem, with effectively zero binding authority on other instances of similar problems (e.g. a case on Compound x1 will have no bearing, a priori, on a virtually identical Compound x1.1)
dennis_jeeves2 3 hours ago [-]
>Congress will probably have to pass laws that ban each specific individual compound.
This speak of stupidity/incompetence or most likely corruption, the average ignorant populace is generally to blame, their priorities are never a healthy environment ( unless it's for virtue signalling). There is no hope.
WillPostForFood 3 hours ago [-]
It is also what happens when you pass dumb laws with no consideration of second order effects. If you want to ban bad plastics, mandate a safe alternative.
dennis_jeeves2 2 hours ago [-]
> If you want to ban bad plastics, mandate a safe alternative.
Not always possible, is it? I mean there must have been a time before plastics?
hypercube33 2 hours ago [-]
For most of this stuff, we had something - glass. Companies lobbied against it because they had to build in recycling costs, and I assume its more expensive to ship.
creaturemachine 55 minutes ago [-]
The shipping issue is entirely new. There are generations alive today that survived without fresh fruit imported from across the globe.
AlecSchueler 1 hours ago [-]
And pre-emptively ban new materials and outlaw attempts to innovate?
NewJazz 47 minutes ago [-]
You can still synthesize new chemicals, but you have to run studies and receive informed consent from subjects before dumping it in the wider world.
gosub100 2 hours ago [-]
> a mole
That's a very good pun even if it wasn't intentional.
klevertree 3 hours ago [-]
Reports like this on the dangers of DEHP is exactly why I started work on NeutraOat (https://neutraoat.com/), a modified oat fiber supplement designed to trap plasticizers in your gut before they can get into your bloodstream. The idea is to give people an easy, safe way to avoid absorbing plasticizers that you've ingested.
I just use my microwave to boil and drink a couple tablespoons of ground barley with a sweetener, beta glucan is amazing and hulled barley is awesome, cheap and higher in beta glucan than oats.
Solved every gastro issue I've ever had, humans co-evolved with barley and it's awesome. No modifications needed.
klevertree 3 hours ago [-]
Not a bad idea for your health, but it won't trap plasticizers. We're modifying the beta glucan to have many tiny, "sticky" pores to trap the chemicals in the gut, so they go out with the rest of the beta glucan. Pure beta glucan, whether from oats or barley, won't have much effect.
fellowniusmonk 2 hours ago [-]
Based on everything I know about the mechanism of action and the impact of dietary fiber in general on microplastic adsorption I would need to see a study with protocols and raw data published to be convinced that barley is lacking and your solution is superior but I'm open to it.
Unfortunately, unless I've misread, the evidence for barley in this case is zero. So any evidence for the modified solution wins.
fellowniusmonk 1 hours ago [-]
Hulled Barley is a combination of both IDF and SDF's, that study is for DF across the board. Frankly a barley drink made with unfiltered french press coffee would probably be the single best/easiest validated drink for reducing absorption of microplastics and heavy metals.
But it is an under researched area for sure.
illegalsmile 3 hours ago [-]
So you eat both, have ground barley with something to make it more palatable and cook with hulled barley in meals? Seems like it's a better solution than psyllium fiber.
fellowniusmonk 1 hours ago [-]
I grind hulled barley to a powder and then boil it with RO water in the microwave. Total cook time in my microwave for the ~2tbl I consume is 2 minutes and 10 seconds.
I put in a little stevia/monk fruit for taste.
Because the end result is basically a thickened drink with a rather neutral flavor I'll often throw in my 3rd shot of espresso for the day or just drink it as is while still hot.
A lot of cultures that are long lived tend to have barley based drinks but of course isolating barley's effect is a fools errand, it's just correlation at best.
I started playing with barley for a "cream of wheat" esq experience, which was actually way better than cream of wheat or oats but I found that the water absorption of barley is so high that for gastro purposes it's more consistent to add enough water that it remains a drink.
The upside bonus is that due to the mechanism of action you can start with very low volumes of barley and it doesn't give you gastro distress the way other types of fiber supplementation can, basically the soluble fiber slows down the movement of food through the intestines giving your gut more digestive time to create a homogenous, gelled slurry making the defection process closer to ideal texture.
I now also spend far less time on the toilet and it only takes 2 minutes and a single hot beverage every morning.
One other positive side effect is I've found that my overall hydration stays more consistent as well.
illegalsmile 12 minutes ago [-]
Thanks for the info! I'm always using psyllium but reading more and hearing about barley it seems like combining the two for my morning and evening drink might be the way to go.
fellowniusmonk 5 minutes ago [-]
Sounds good! I used to worry about insoluble fiber more but barley's been very effective for me so I dropped psyllium, it's method of action is improves fermentation so it definitely takes a few weeks to normalize everything. I found that with supplementing with insoluble fiber (psyllium) food was moving through my digestion too fast.
mysticllama 3 hours ago [-]
interesting, how often do you drink it?
klevertree 3 hours ago [-]
We're still prototyping and testing, but you'll probably have to eat it twice a day to get complete coverage. It needs to be in the gut at the same time as the plasticizer to have any effect.
Havoc 7 hours ago [-]
Much like asbestos well probably spend the next 200 years sorting the consequences of plastic out
bobbylarrybobby 4 hours ago [-]
I wish plastic were as easily manageable as asbestos. Asbestos has always been far better contained than plastics — it's basically only ever been used “behind the scenes” in buildings. Now that we've phased out its use, you basically only need to manage asbestos when demolishing or doing extensive work on a building, when those cordoned-off spots become exposed.
Meanwhile plastics have already permeated our environment. Even if we stopped all use today, it would be practically impossible to remove every trace of them from the environment.
m3047 2 hours ago [-]
> behind the scenes
Asbestos was at times used in:
* cigarrette filters
* water filters
* hair dryers
* space heaters
* anti-scorch pads (stoves and bunsen burners)
* HVAC duct sealing
* boiler, pipe, and duct insulation (buildings, machinery, vehicles)
* brakes
ethagnawl 43 minutes ago [-]
* as topsoil/fill (graciously provided by Raybestos) when my hometown built sports fields in the 70/80s
creaturemachine 47 minutes ago [-]
floor tiles, ceiling tiles, plaster & sheetrock
There were times when you could have been surrounded by the stuff in your own home.
It was also boxed up in pure form and sold as artificial snow.
jajko 3 minutes ago [-]
My father when young (60s, eastern Europe) was working as a student on road and airport runway construction, working with hot tarmac material. Used heavily-ladden asbestos clothing and gloves. Luckily no mesothelioma till now so he got lucky.
It was really in many places due to its great thermal properties. But plastic permeated everything these days, thats on another few orders of magnitudes higher level.
steve_adams_86 5 hours ago [-]
It seems like 200 years could be an extremely optimistic timeline without major improvements to our technologies used for removing plastic from the environment. At the moment those technologies hardly exist
Cthulhu_ 5 hours ago [-]
Removing plastic from the environment has more to do with keeping it out in the first place. Make sure your county has proper recycling facilities and that the waste processing companies deal with plastic responsibly instead of exporting it abroad or burning it.
mandevil 3 hours ago [-]
Is there such thing as proper plastic recycling today? My understanding is that all current generation plastic recycling is basically a scam, minor pilot projects because it is so energy inefficient that you can't possibly do it at small scale, leave alone at the scale of world-wide plastic use.
Even the Petroleum Institute has admitted that previous generations of "recycling" was a scam, but swears that this time it's real, is my understanding of the situation. In fact, I seem to recall speculation that most of the plastic in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch was "recycled" plastic that had been shipped from the US and Europe to China, then dumped into rivers there and ended up in the Pacific Ocean, because plastic recycling wasn't just a scam, it was actively negative for the environment.
Just to be clear, recycling is good (paper mostly works out, aluminum for sure), but plastic recycling in particular is largely a scam designed to assuage people's guilt at how much plastic they use.
creaturemachine 33 minutes ago [-]
Don't waste water rinsing your recyclables. They'll eventually be floating in it.
scheme271 2 hours ago [-]
Ultimately, the way to do this is to stop using it unless absolutely necessary and use other alternatives. It's like bugs where fixing the problem before the build stage is orders of magnitude easier than trying to fix the problem once it's been released.
0xbadcafebee 4 hours ago [-]
We can't remove it from the environment but we can bury it and we can filter it. We may be able to remove it if we can find compounds to bind with it in the soil. Everything else will be going into a landfill and our water will just be tainted forever (because it goes into the ocean and comes down in rain). So start investing in water filtration companies, in addition to the companies that will own all the water rights.
steve_adams_86 3 hours ago [-]
We can't filter water at the scale necessary. Also, when you bury it, it's going into the water cycle unless you enclose it like a landfill. That's not realistic. It also means the plastic would need to be processed at that landfill to prevent it from eventually entering the water cycle as well (once the landfill is EOL and the lining erodes).
The earth doesn't filter the byproducts out. Burying isn't a solution. It also doesn't address the behemoth scale of plastics already in the environment which will continue to release byproducts into our water.
ninininino 3 hours ago [-]
How would you possible bury it if it's distributed throughout the environment and biosphere extremely evenly from the top of Mt. Everest to the bottom of the Mariana's trench to inside your testicles and brain?
Bury everything currently on the surface of the planet and replace it with material from underground?
darknavi 5 hours ago [-]
"Plastic free" environments will likely be cultivated and it will become yet another class divide as it will be prohibitively expensive.
gosub100 2 hours ago [-]
Or a corporate exploit where large businesses lobby for more regulations that small businesses can't afford to comply with.
dinkblam 4 hours ago [-]
200 years ago was 1825. a lot happens in 200 years...
steve_adams_86 3 hours ago [-]
Totally, and I hope we care to make this happen. If we cared to, I think we could solve it much faster than 200 years. My doubt is more so about our perceived incentives and will to focus on it. We've solved some insane problems, and while I know virtually nothing about this stuff, my intuition here is that solving plastics problems is likely simpler (chemically and logistically) than, say, sending rockets to space and creating nuclear reactors. I know it's more complicated than it appears on the surface (we have heaps of plastic and its byproducts in a dozen types of forms, in all different biomes, in all stages of decay, and countless byproducts under the same conditions... On a global scale), but other problems we've solved have been multifaceted too.
Maybe what we need is a strong will to solve the problem, no lobbying to prevent the funding of the necessary research or restrictions on creation of plastics, and so on. Similar to how the space race and nuclear programs more or less got all of the money, resources, and agency required to get the job done.
It seems like the reality with plastic is we've become insanely good at making it, but nowhere near as good at dealing with its externalities. We can get better at it.
conorjh 5 hours ago [-]
there are fungi that have evolved to eat plastic with no human intervention. we'll be fine.
MDGeist 5 hours ago [-]
There was a recentish David Cronenberg movie about humans evolving to eat plastic so we'll be fine. Can't wait to chow down on plastic.
tomaytotomato 4 hours ago [-]
I have a nice piece of aged nylon from the 1940s, very mature flavours, free range. Goes well with a Chianti red wine pairing.
steve_adams_86 3 hours ago [-]
What if there are negative byproducts of this process though? It's a leap to conclude that we're fine. Consider that we'd be placing a lot of food for fungi into the environment, in places they shouldn't be, which would likely disrupt those environments... And also, the fungi likely can't live in every place the plastic is. Deep sea, deserts, alpine, etc.
metalman 4 hours ago [-]
many organisms are eating plastics, but that is not good for us at all in the short term.
A study ? bedford institute? from a while back reported that plastics that they were collecting from the ocean, were full of holes from bieng eaten by something, and if you think about plastic as a widly distrubuted, easily broken down substance with very high intrinsic energy content, that it's no surprise at all that things are eating it. But back to us, thats bad, because all.of those things eating plastic, are then eaten, and passed up the food chain to us, at the top.
So what we need to know, is how far advanced the process of filling the food chain with, undesirable for us substances, is, and what the future looks like if we just shrug, or how long will the system take to clear itself out.
ie: is the biosphere "saturated" or not.
If not, what is the max concentration that we can expect, and when
0xDEAFBEAD 4 hours ago [-]
If you want to get a sense of which foods could be high in DEHP, you can go here
If I understand correctly, an RXBAR could have up to 1% of your tolerable daily intake for DEHP, and most foods are well below that.
Based on the OP, it seems like DEHP might be a bigger issue in developing countries.
gamblor956 3 hours ago [-]
For a lot of the foods on the list, the DEHP, BPA, etc., come from the packaging materials.
So, for example, Whole Foods organic grass fed beef appears to be very high in DEHP...if you get it in the plastic wrap container, but would have almost none if wrapped in wax paper (note: not the same thing as parchment paper). Similarly, a lot of restaurant to-go orders will test high for endocrine disruptors because they come in plastic containers, but would be low in these chemicals if tested at the restaurant.
unstyledcontent 5 hours ago [-]
It's extremely difficult to avoid exposure to these plastics. I started buying "pthalate free" bath products only to learn there if the bottle that holds them is plastic, then you're still getting exposed to pthalates. Most foods are exposed to these plasicizers as well, especially meats and dairy.
chneu 3 hours ago [-]
It's pretty crazy how bad for us meat/dairy is in a huge variety of ways yet people hand wave away most of the issues.
Antibiotics usage is still a huge issue in beef/dairy. Environmental destruction is still a huge issue in beef/dairy. Hormone exposure thru beef/dairy is still an issue. Etc. Etc.
vladms 3 hours ago [-]
I think in some countries people understand all these issues and some do change their behavior, but it takes much longer than you would assume (reference: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-consumpti... - note the peak consumption is in the past).
On the other hand you might downplay how bad can be for some people to totally eliminating meat/dairy. I know a couple of examples that had big issues with iron deficiency due to that. Pills didn't work for years, while restarting eating for a couple of months meat fixed all their health issues.
I do agree though that people eat way more than they need, but probably it is not only meat related (also sugar, carbs and others).
MarcelOlsz 3 hours ago [-]
How else am I supposed to get swole? I buy my meat from local butchers. Getting 200g of protein from vegetables and lentils and stuff would be impossible.
iamacyborg 2 hours ago [-]
You probably don’t need to be getting 200g of protein a day, to start with.
MarcelOlsz 2 hours ago [-]
I'm 6'6 and 120kg, so better safe than sorry. Are you knowledgeable about bodybuilding?
porkloin 2 minutes ago [-]
"Need" and "want" are different things.
WithinReason 7 hours ago [-]
DEHP has been known to be harmful for at least 30 years
kurthr 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah, most of the comments here are crap. The regulation for this stuff (and there are so many it's stupid) started in "the west" around 1999 and is pretty complete post 2022. Remember when polycarbonate water bottles were a thing, when they took chemicals out of kids toys and couches? That was all bad, but virgin PET, PP, silicone, and HDPE don't really leach plasticizers. That's WHY they're used. Really, this borders on a 25 year human clinical trial on South America, Africa, and SE Asia... well maybe we can measure reintroduction to the US now that corruption is a thing and regulation or rule of law is out the window. Thanks, Obama.
0xbadcafebee 4 hours ago [-]
> Remember when polycarbonate water bottles were a thing
Yeah, they have "BPA Free" polycarbonate now, since that's what was regulated. I still wouldn't use it, there's many better cheaper alternatives, unless you're just importing it without testing? At least they're labeling it as PC?!?
Mostly, don't get your polycarbonate hot.
To be clear, if you're really worried about plastic, you can't use paper or aluminum containers either since they're coated. It's glass only, but no mason jars or screw caps since those have silicone seals. Seal it with wax/cork.
Silicone is likely one of the safest, though.
horsawlarway 3 hours ago [-]
There's been some interesting pushes to use glass linings here.
Ex Chico in the baby bottle space (glass lined plastic bottles) Purist in the adult bottle space (glass lined stainless steel).
You can also get plenty of unlined aluminum/stainless cups/bottles (amazon is full of them).
No idea how that idea is going to play out long term.
They are lightweight and flexible and supposedly have minimal plastic contact with water.
yborg 4 hours ago [-]
Aren't steel food cans usually lined as well?
hollerith 4 hours ago [-]
Yes, most cans are lined with plastic, but some are lined with tin, which I consider safe enough. And cans of pineapple are often lined with zinc, which I consider safe enough. Unfortunately, the only way to tell which cans have these tin and zinc linings is to buy one, open it, empty it and look at the lining.
Also, Eden Foods uses cans linings free of phthalates:
>virgin PET, PP, silicone, and HDPE don't really leach plasticizers.
True but most people don't know what those are, and they also don't/can't currently cover all plastic in the household / daily life.
Eisenstein 3 hours ago [-]
FYI:
"These recent regulatory measures reflect a growing awareness of the harmful effects of DEHP. However, it is notable that many of these regulations were not in place at the time of data acquisition for the present study and their effect is not reflected in our results." (pg 11)
We are seeing results from pre-regulation era in this data.
gamblor956 3 hours ago [-]
Obama's administration passed regulations on the most well-known endocrine disrupters in 2016. They wanted to include more on the list of regulated chemicals, but the chemical industry's GOP buddies blocked that.
So basically you're blaming Obama for not managing to do something perfectly. Are you part of the "all or nothing" camp of policymaking?
kurthr 2 hours ago [-]
No I'm blaming the decline of American Civilization on Obama, because he didn't run for a 3rd term. Easily, the best Republican candidate since Nixon.
rawgabbit 1 hours ago [-]
If Michelle Obama ran for election, I believe she would have/ will win the presidency easily.
leptons 23 minutes ago [-]
They should have included "/s" at the end of that, to avoid confusion. It was a joke.
RansomStark 7 hours ago [-]
the chemicals are phthalates, in this case di-2-ethylhexyl phthalate (DEHP)
Hnrobert42 1 hours ago [-]
Given the US VP's concern about low domestic birth rates, Maybe there is a way to link this to stuff conservatives care about enough to override big business' interests. Probably not though. Sigh.
SomaticPirate 4 hours ago [-]
I've tried hard to remove phthalates from my life. The biggest change that I feel is sustainable is looking for "hard" plastics. Usually phthalates are found in flexible, soft plastics. So hard plastics typically have less of them.
bhouston 6 hours ago [-]
My suspicion is that the use of plastics with food is also the main contributor to the fertility crisis (declining sperm counts, etc) we have. Wouldn't be surprised that this then also contributes, through sperm quality degradation, to the increase in autism.
And it isn't just my suspicion, see links below, but we haven't yet forcefully moved away from plastics around food. If RF Kennedy could do one thing, I would ask him to focus on plastics and food, rather than the more nutty stuff.
Side bonus: it may help raise the low fertility rate that Trump and Elon are so concerned about as well.
Is autism actually on the rise, or is it just more diagnosed thanks to advances in and availability of diagnoses and general awareness in the population?
A lot of people that get a fresh autism diagnosis these days recognize the same symptoms in their (grand)parents.
I believe that even non-verbal and low-IQ versions of autism (ones that are unambiguous to diagnose) are also on the rise.
d1sxeyes 3 hours ago [-]
I did some research on this a while back, conclusion is far from certain. There are some clear pointers to increased diagnosis (changes to the definition of autism in later DSM versions, improved awareness and access to literature), but there are also studies that indicate an increase in the number of cases. It’s impossible to be sure what’s driving this: pollutants, increased average parental age, or some other factor.
Given that autism is highly heritable, most experts are sceptical of the idea that environmental factors could drive a major increase in the numbers, although again, it could be the case that genetics predicts only predisposition towards autism, rather than the condition itself.
A lot of wiffle to say “we don’t know”, but if there is a genuine increase in the incidence of autism in the population for etiological reasons, it’s relatively small.
bhouston 2 hours ago [-]
> Given that autism is highly heritable, most experts are sceptical of the idea that environmental factors could drive a major increase in the numbers
It could easily turn out to be a not very severe problem, like "Use rayon instead of polyester for your clothing" or "No more styrofoam, because styrene monomer offgassing in your lungs"; The issue is that without a lot of dedicated study (probably animal studies into the millions of individual-exposure-years) we wouldn't even know. These things are too ubiquitous in modern life to readily separate them from us with careful non-experimental study design.
"The duke was highly introverted and well known for his eccentricity; he did not want to meet people and never invited anyone to his home. He employed hundreds through his various construction projects, and though well paid, the employees were not allowed to speak to him or acknowledge him. The one worker who raised his hat to the duke was promptly dismissed. The tenants on his estates were aware of his wishes and knew they were required to ignore him if they passed by. His rooms had double letterboxes, one for in-coming and another for out-going mail. Only his valet was permitted to see him in person in his quarters—he would not even let the doctor in, while his tenants and workmen received all their instructions in writing."
"The underground chambers—all of which were painted pink—included a great hall 160 ft (49 m) long and 63 ft (19 m) wide, which was originally intended as a chapel, but which was instead used as a picture gallery and occasionally as a ballroom. The ballroom reportedly had a hydraulic lift that could carry 20 guests from the surface and a ceiling that was painted as a giant sunset. The duke never organised any dances in the ballroom."
We'd diagnose this guy in a heartbeat now, but then, he was "eccentric". If he'd been poor and not an aristocrat, he'd have been a "moron" or "retarded" or something along those lines.
It's deeply odd to see Kennedy saying it's a new phenomenon. His own aunt was lobotomized for "becoming increasingly irritable and difficult".
bhouston 4 hours ago [-]
>> the increase in autism
> Is largely illusory.
Huh? First off autism rates are provable increasing in the US. It is multi-factor for sure that includes increased awareness and more access to autism tests, but...
It is a proven fact that older fathers have a higher change of having offspring with autism [1] and it is also a fact that in the US (as like many places in the world) men are having their children later [2]. Together these two accepted scientific facts lead directly to increasing autism rates, no? Or do you disagree with this reasoning?
The link I am positing but there isn't quite as much acceptance is that sperm degradation that leads to autism, isn't only caused by age but also influenced by plastics.
> First off autism rates are provable increasing in the US.
Yes. That's what happens when you make a brand new label. (And then redefine it a few times; Asperger's used to be separate, now it's part of the spectrum. Or when we started realizing that, say, women are underdiagnosed with it and started working to address that.)
Rates of female "hysteria" are at an all-time low, for similar reasons.
> It is a proven fact that older fathers have a higher change of having offspring with autism…
Which could be just because of biological changes from their age, or environmental exposures during that time, but also could have other explanations, like autistic people having a harder time on average finding long-term partners.
d1sxeyes 3 hours ago [-]
All solid points, but not well-aligned with your original argument that the increase in autism is largely illusory.
ceejayoz 3 hours ago [-]
Why? The rise in autism diagnoses is not the same thing as a rise in autism.
We've had plenty of autistic people all along. We just called it different things. They're the "weird uncle" or "idiot savant" or the guy who went off to live in a silent monastery of eras past. Insane asylums. Or they wandered off at age three into a snowstorm in an era where baby gates weren't a thing.
d1sxeyes 1 hours ago [-]
Well it sort of is, actually.
Autism is quite literally what we define it to be: there’s no physiological or neurological test we can use to diagnose it, there’s no biomarker that defines autism.
If we change how we diagnose autism, we change how we define it.
The evidence by the way seems to indicate that there is a significant increase in diagnoses, and not all of that can be attributed to changing definitions.
ceejayoz 45 minutes ago [-]
> If we change how we diagnose autism, we change how we define it.
But the incredibly obvious corollary to this is "you can't then turn around and compare case rates before and after that definition". You can't go back to the 1400s and reassess cases of witchcraft and demonic possession to get an accurate, modernly-accurate rate of autistic people in that era to compare against.
RFK Jr. is out there saying things like "autism epidemic" and implying the cases come out of nowhere, when many of those cases are just changing a diagnosis code on an existing condition.
jemmyw 3 hours ago [-]
If you search for declining sperm counts you'll find that the evidence is all over the place. It makes a good headline, but studies have it dropping, rising, staying stable.
There's no real evidence that people are having a harder time having babies at the same ages they did traditionally. The fertility rate is a social problem, probably (I guess it could be chemically induced behavior)
criddell 1 hours ago [-]
The Cleveland Clinic says sperm counts have been stable for the past 50+ years for men in the US:
There is a lot of evidence that fertility, especially male, is dropping. This isnt societal. The actual fertility rate of sperm has been measured to be dropping.
This isn't "people aren't having kids." It's "male sperm is less fertile".
This is in addition to societal trends in developed countries to have less kids.
"linked" does not mean what most people think it means.
0xbadcafebee 5 hours ago [-]
> In their new analysis, the authors estimated that DEHP exposure contributed to 368,764 deaths, or more than 10% of all global mortality from heart disease in 2018 among men and women aged 55 through 64.
lol what
seper8 6 hours ago [-]
People will look back in 50 years and say "You know they used to say that packaging all food in plastic was fine? Even though the science said otherwise?"
ChrisMarshallNY 5 hours ago [-]
I used to work as a bench tech at a defense contractor (microwave equipment).
Every tech had a little bottle on their bench, with a special lid, that would have a small amount of liquid always in it (you'd pump it, to bring up more liquid). These bottles are still used, today.
This was for removing solder flux. Worked great.
At the end of each row of tech benches, was a red bucket, full of the same stuff. We'd use that to wash entire boards.
If you got the liquid on your skin, it made the skin turn white, and flake off.
Smelled like acetone had a one-night-stand with gasoline.
The liquid was trichlor[0] (not the pool kind).
Our management swore that it was perfectly safe, and that we could even drink it.
The industry started with carbontet (CTC), they replaced it in the 70s with the perchlor stuff you're describing (PCE) in the 80s, then with Trichlorethylene (TCE) in the early 90s, which in turn was replaced with (TCA) Trichlorethane and now all the chlorinated stuff is gone (along with the PCB industry). There's still isopropyl and GBL butyrolactone (which is regulated as a precursor to GHB) for degreasing.
Back in the 60s carbontet was used everywhere (dry cleaning and industrial) and there are superfund sites in Happy Tx and Alabama.
Everyone has seen the walk through dry cleaning right?
https://youtu.be/WbkfkcSiYcI
We're literally 60 years since the first regulation. And your local dry cleaner was leaking chlorinated solvents into the 80s. Now the cleanup for old gas stations is mostly complete, but the new MTBE stuff is nasty!
BobbyJo 3 hours ago [-]
That video is the craziest thing I have ever seen.
Mathnerd314 4 hours ago [-]
1,1,1-trichloroethane doesn't seem particularly toxic - "probable carcinogen", some neurological and liver effects but I'd say it's probably still safer than e.g. isopropyl alcohol which definitely leads to neurological issues long-term. The reason it's banned is because of the ozone layer, not because it's unsafe to individual humans.
You are probably correct. We just called it "trichlor."
I wouldn't call the smell "pleasant," or "mild," though...
This was 1983-1987. My first job.
2 hours ago [-]
2 hours ago [-]
hammock 4 hours ago [-]
You sure it wasn't TCE?
lenerdenator 5 hours ago [-]
The problem is, there's real benefits to using plastics for all sorts of things, foodstuff packaging included. Human lives are demonstrably longer than they were in developed countries where plastics are regularly used. It'd be interesting to see if you could quantify how long the average person's life has been extended/made better because of polymers.
Could we go back to wax paper, glass bottles, metal tins, and the like? Maybe, but that comes with its own challenges, from spoilage to metals contamination to transport weight.
First thing I thought of is how much DEHP is used is the hospital, including for medical devices implanted in the heart. Such as pacemakers, catheters, stents and valves.
DEHP as a component is something like 30% of flexible tubing used in a hospital setting.
Phthalates leach because they aren't integrated with the base plastic by design - that's how they work. Phthalates sit in between the polymer chains (such as PET), rather than being bonded to them, which is precisely what affords that material flexibility, and also why they leach so easily.
I assure you, they will not do anything with the information even if they had it.
Convenience trumps every other consideration including safety.
You resentment is not valid. The switch to plastics did not happen overnight. These used a lot more choices in the past. Common people increasingly chose plastics over a period of time. ( or rather were lazy) Your resentment can be rephrased as - "I cannot come to terms with the fact that common people really are that stupid".
Freedoms in various forms are generally not taken away overnight. As they say "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"
You can't expect every citizen to have 20 phds and actively keep searching for all potential harm from all sides, even you, whoever you are, are not keeping up with it all, thats a fact.
It can be tackled trivially, albeit it will create some business friction - you introduce a novel chemical in your product on our market? Please here is the substantial checklist of tests that you need to pass to be allowed. Otherwise please use approved stuff or bye, be it chinese sweatshop or apple. People like trump with their elephant-in-porcelaine-shop approach could be the force of good if they focused ie on such topics with their ferocity. But they do exact opposite (cash flow uber alles, fuck non-ultra-high-net-worth plebs its their fault for being poor and dumb subhumans).
So please a bit less of that high horse and more empathy and reason, absolute capitalism with disregard of individuals is what gave us marxism and communism as response, not the path we want or need to go down in 21st century for any reason.
Under the Chevron Doctrine, Congress could pass a law that broadly bans all chemicals like these and then the agencies could react to new studies like this and push out new rules as we learn more and as companies attempt workarounds.
But with that tool gone, there's basically no chance of this ever getting fixed. Congress will probably have to pass laws that ban each specific individual compound. Good luck with that!
Claiming that banning evictions falls under there is a rather 'creative' interpretation, but it was initially allowed due to Chevon deference where judges were obligated to defer to the interpretations of regulatory agencies.
If an agency is tasked with the 'prohibition of plastics, or related compounds, deemed reasonably likely to be harmful' then they would be fully capable of doing just that. With Chevron Deference they probably could then expand that mandate to then do something like claim regulatory authority over beaches owing to prohibited plastic waste washing ashore, but without it that would probably require a new law since that's clearly an unintended expansion of power.
Not true. And I mean literally definitionally not true. Chevron deference only applies (definitionally) when the agency's interpretation is reasonable.
With Chevron deference, if a regulated entity challenged a rule, the court applied a two part test:
Part 1. Is the matter resolved unambiguously by legislation? If yes: legislation wins. If no: proceed to Part 2.
Part 2. Is the agency's interpretation of the legislation reasonable? If yes: the agency's rule wins. If no: the rule is bad.
Without Chevron deference, if a regulated entity challenges a rule, it works this way:
Part 1. Is the matter resolved unambiguously by legislation? If yes: legislation wins. If no: proceed to Part 2.
Part 2. What's the court's opinion on the matter? That's the rule for this particular instance of the problem, with effectively zero binding authority on other instances of similar problems (e.g. a case on Compound x1 will have no bearing, a priori, on a virtually identical Compound x1.1)
This speak of stupidity/incompetence or most likely corruption, the average ignorant populace is generally to blame, their priorities are never a healthy environment ( unless it's for virtue signalling). There is no hope.
Not always possible, is it? I mean there must have been a time before plastics?
That's a very good pun even if it wasn't intentional.
Link above has a form to sign up for the mailing list. I also have a Substack post summarizing what we know about the dangers of plasticizers (https://trevorklee.substack.com/p/the-evidence-on-plasticize...) .
Solved every gastro issue I've ever had, humans co-evolved with barley and it's awesome. No modifications needed.
https://iadns.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fft2....
But it is an under researched area for sure.
I put in a little stevia/monk fruit for taste.
Because the end result is basically a thickened drink with a rather neutral flavor I'll often throw in my 3rd shot of espresso for the day or just drink it as is while still hot.
A lot of cultures that are long lived tend to have barley based drinks but of course isolating barley's effect is a fools errand, it's just correlation at best.
I started playing with barley for a "cream of wheat" esq experience, which was actually way better than cream of wheat or oats but I found that the water absorption of barley is so high that for gastro purposes it's more consistent to add enough water that it remains a drink.
The upside bonus is that due to the mechanism of action you can start with very low volumes of barley and it doesn't give you gastro distress the way other types of fiber supplementation can, basically the soluble fiber slows down the movement of food through the intestines giving your gut more digestive time to create a homogenous, gelled slurry making the defection process closer to ideal texture.
I now also spend far less time on the toilet and it only takes 2 minutes and a single hot beverage every morning.
One other positive side effect is I've found that my overall hydration stays more consistent as well.
Meanwhile plastics have already permeated our environment. Even if we stopped all use today, it would be practically impossible to remove every trace of them from the environment.
Asbestos was at times used in:
* cigarrette filters
* water filters
* hair dryers
* space heaters
* anti-scorch pads (stoves and bunsen burners)
* HVAC duct sealing
* boiler, pipe, and duct insulation (buildings, machinery, vehicles)
* brakes
There were times when you could have been surrounded by the stuff in your own home.
It was also boxed up in pure form and sold as artificial snow.
It was really in many places due to its great thermal properties. But plastic permeated everything these days, thats on another few orders of magnitudes higher level.
Even the Petroleum Institute has admitted that previous generations of "recycling" was a scam, but swears that this time it's real, is my understanding of the situation. In fact, I seem to recall speculation that most of the plastic in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch was "recycled" plastic that had been shipped from the US and Europe to China, then dumped into rivers there and ended up in the Pacific Ocean, because plastic recycling wasn't just a scam, it was actively negative for the environment.
Just to be clear, recycling is good (paper mostly works out, aluminum for sure), but plastic recycling in particular is largely a scam designed to assuage people's guilt at how much plastic they use.
The earth doesn't filter the byproducts out. Burying isn't a solution. It also doesn't address the behemoth scale of plastics already in the environment which will continue to release byproducts into our water.
Bury everything currently on the surface of the planet and replace it with material from underground?
Maybe what we need is a strong will to solve the problem, no lobbying to prevent the funding of the necessary research or restrictions on creation of plastics, and so on. Similar to how the space race and nuclear programs more or less got all of the money, resources, and agency required to get the job done.
It seems like the reality with plastic is we've become insanely good at making it, but nowhere near as good at dealing with its externalities. We can get better at it.
https://www.plasticlist.org/
and sort by the "DEHP" column.
If I understand correctly, an RXBAR could have up to 1% of your tolerable daily intake for DEHP, and most foods are well below that.
Based on the OP, it seems like DEHP might be a bigger issue in developing countries.
So, for example, Whole Foods organic grass fed beef appears to be very high in DEHP...if you get it in the plastic wrap container, but would have almost none if wrapped in wax paper (note: not the same thing as parchment paper). Similarly, a lot of restaurant to-go orders will test high for endocrine disruptors because they come in plastic containers, but would be low in these chemicals if tested at the restaurant.
Antibiotics usage is still a huge issue in beef/dairy. Environmental destruction is still a huge issue in beef/dairy. Hormone exposure thru beef/dairy is still an issue. Etc. Etc.
On the other hand you might downplay how bad can be for some people to totally eliminating meat/dairy. I know a couple of examples that had big issues with iron deficiency due to that. Pills didn't work for years, while restarting eating for a couple of months meat fixed all their health issues.
I do agree though that people eat way more than they need, but probably it is not only meat related (also sugar, carbs and others).
They're... still a thing... https://www.google.com/search?q=polycarbonate+water+bottles
Mostly, don't get your polycarbonate hot.
To be clear, if you're really worried about plastic, you can't use paper or aluminum containers either since they're coated. It's glass only, but no mason jars or screw caps since those have silicone seals. Seal it with wax/cork.
Silicone is likely one of the safest, though.
Ex Chico in the baby bottle space (glass lined plastic bottles) Purist in the adult bottle space (glass lined stainless steel).
You can also get plenty of unlined aluminum/stainless cups/bottles (amazon is full of them).
No idea how that idea is going to play out long term.
They are lightweight and flexible and supposedly have minimal plastic contact with water.
Also, Eden Foods uses cans linings free of phthalates:
https://www.edenfoods.com/about/values.php
https://www.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/research/suppo...
Another article says vinyl flooring including luxury vinyl may also leach off plasticizers?
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4540696/
True but most people don't know what those are, and they also don't/can't currently cover all plastic in the household / daily life.
"These recent regulatory measures reflect a growing awareness of the harmful effects of DEHP. However, it is notable that many of these regulations were not in place at the time of data acquisition for the present study and their effect is not reflected in our results." (pg 11)
We are seeing results from pre-regulation era in this data.
So basically you're blaming Obama for not managing to do something perfectly. Are you part of the "all or nothing" camp of policymaking?
And it isn't just my suspicion, see links below, but we haven't yet forcefully moved away from plastics around food. If RF Kennedy could do one thing, I would ask him to focus on plastics and food, rather than the more nutty stuff.
Side bonus: it may help raise the low fertility rate that Trump and Elon are so concerned about as well.
https://cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/reduce-your-risk/myt...
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9134445/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35134716/
A lot of people that get a fresh autism diagnosis these days recognize the same symptoms in their (grand)parents.
Anyway, RFK does seem to focus on food stuffs, by banning certain food dyes (no more lurid froot loops for you (https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/22/nx...) but also by relaxing food safety laws (https://www.yahoo.com/news/usda-withdraws-plan-limit-salmone...).
Given that autism is highly heritable, most experts are sceptical of the idea that environmental factors could drive a major increase in the numbers, although again, it could be the case that genetics predicts only predisposition towards autism, rather than the condition itself.
A lot of wiffle to say “we don’t know”, but if there is a genuine increase in the incidence of autism in the population for etiological reasons, it’s relatively small.
But we do know that age of fathers does drive increase autism rates - thus while there is likely a genetic component, there are degradations related to age that further increase the risk: https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/risk-of-autism-spike...
Is largely illusory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bentinck,_5th_Duke_of_Por...
"The duke was highly introverted and well known for his eccentricity; he did not want to meet people and never invited anyone to his home. He employed hundreds through his various construction projects, and though well paid, the employees were not allowed to speak to him or acknowledge him. The one worker who raised his hat to the duke was promptly dismissed. The tenants on his estates were aware of his wishes and knew they were required to ignore him if they passed by. His rooms had double letterboxes, one for in-coming and another for out-going mail. Only his valet was permitted to see him in person in his quarters—he would not even let the doctor in, while his tenants and workmen received all their instructions in writing."
"The underground chambers—all of which were painted pink—included a great hall 160 ft (49 m) long and 63 ft (19 m) wide, which was originally intended as a chapel, but which was instead used as a picture gallery and occasionally as a ballroom. The ballroom reportedly had a hydraulic lift that could carry 20 guests from the surface and a ceiling that was painted as a giant sunset. The duke never organised any dances in the ballroom."
We'd diagnose this guy in a heartbeat now, but then, he was "eccentric". If he'd been poor and not an aristocrat, he'd have been a "moron" or "retarded" or something along those lines.
It's deeply odd to see Kennedy saying it's a new phenomenon. His own aunt was lobotomized for "becoming increasingly irritable and difficult".
> Is largely illusory.
Huh? First off autism rates are provable increasing in the US. It is multi-factor for sure that includes increased awareness and more access to autism tests, but...
It is a proven fact that older fathers have a higher change of having offspring with autism [1] and it is also a fact that in the US (as like many places in the world) men are having their children later [2]. Together these two accepted scientific facts lead directly to increasing autism rates, no? Or do you disagree with this reasoning?
The link I am positing but there isn't quite as much acceptance is that sperm degradation that leads to autism, isn't only caused by age but also influenced by plastics.
[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/autism-rates-risi...
[2] https://biox.stanford.edu/highlight/fathers-american-newborn...
Yes. That's what happens when you make a brand new label. (And then redefine it a few times; Asperger's used to be separate, now it's part of the spectrum. Or when we started realizing that, say, women are underdiagnosed with it and started working to address that.)
Rates of female "hysteria" are at an all-time low, for similar reasons.
> It is a proven fact that older fathers have a higher change of having offspring with autism…
Which could be just because of biological changes from their age, or environmental exposures during that time, but also could have other explanations, like autistic people having a harder time on average finding long-term partners.
We've had plenty of autistic people all along. We just called it different things. They're the "weird uncle" or "idiot savant" or the guy who went off to live in a silent monastery of eras past. Insane asylums. Or they wandered off at age three into a snowstorm in an era where baby gates weren't a thing.
Autism is quite literally what we define it to be: there’s no physiological or neurological test we can use to diagnose it, there’s no biomarker that defines autism.
If we change how we diagnose autism, we change how we define it.
The evidence by the way seems to indicate that there is a significant increase in diagnoses, and not all of that can be attributed to changing definitions.
But the incredibly obvious corollary to this is "you can't then turn around and compare case rates before and after that definition". You can't go back to the 1400s and reassess cases of witchcraft and demonic possession to get an accurate, modernly-accurate rate of autistic people in that era to compare against.
RFK Jr. is out there saying things like "autism epidemic" and implying the cases come out of nowhere, when many of those cases are just changing a diagnosis code on an existing condition.
There's no real evidence that people are having a harder time having babies at the same ages they did traditionally. The fertility rate is a social problem, probably (I guess it could be chemically induced behavior)
https://consultqd.clevelandclinic.org/no-cause-for-panic-as-...
There is a lot of evidence that fertility, especially male, is dropping. This isnt societal. The actual fertility rate of sperm has been measured to be dropping.
This isn't "people aren't having kids." It's "male sperm is less fertile".
This is in addition to societal trends in developed countries to have less kids.
lol what
Every tech had a little bottle on their bench, with a special lid, that would have a small amount of liquid always in it (you'd pump it, to bring up more liquid). These bottles are still used, today.
This was for removing solder flux. Worked great.
At the end of each row of tech benches, was a red bucket, full of the same stuff. We'd use that to wash entire boards.
If you got the liquid on your skin, it made the skin turn white, and flake off.
Smelled like acetone had a one-night-stand with gasoline.
The liquid was trichlor[0] (not the pool kind).
Our management swore that it was perfectly safe, and that we could even drink it.
This was in the early 1980s.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,1,1-Trichloroethane
Back in the 60s carbontet was used everywhere (dry cleaning and industrial) and there are superfund sites in Happy Tx and Alabama.
We're literally 60 years since the first regulation. And your local dry cleaner was leaking chlorinated solvents into the 80s. Now the cleanup for old gas stations is mostly complete, but the new MTBE stuff is nasty!I feel like it's probably the wrong chemical though, far too many similar names. Maybe you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene
I wouldn't call the smell "pleasant," or "mild," though...
This was 1983-1987. My first job.
Could we go back to wax paper, glass bottles, metal tins, and the like? Maybe, but that comes with its own challenges, from spoilage to metals contamination to transport weight.